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Thread: Would you agree with my diagnostic?

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    Default Would you agree with my diagnostic?

    Hi peeps.

    Took chitty away for 5 days and just arrived home. Chitty drove really well all the way there, on arrival at the campsite and being directed to our pitch, I pulled up and wanted to reverse onto it, pulled forward and the engine died a sudden death like you'd just stalled it, turned the key too start it again and no ignition lights what so ever, turning the key produced nothing dead as a dodo. New battery with plenty of charge. got next door neighbours on the site to give us a hand push it into place and set up camp, once set up I removed the dash around ignition and tested with my meter, I had a live feed and turning the key also gave me a live feed on ignition and on start up, Checked fuses and they were all fine, checked for live feed to the pump and it was dead, so the live feed is lost some where between the switch and the pump also no feed to starter motor. Under the passengers side I found the old immobiliser that I know from previous experience that if I took the immobiliser out I suffered the same symptoms as I'm getting now total dead. for a bodge up repair I wired a live feed via a new fuse, so I connect the fuse to give the pump a live feed, then another wire from starter that I touch the battery live to start engine.

    My diagnosis is I suspect that the immobiliser has finally given up and is faulty but the dam thing has around 20-30 wires wired into it and finding the wires connected to the relay is going to be a nightmare, if I can't find the wires responsible then the whole lot will have to be traced and rewired back to the original loom. The immobiliser was professionally installed and this means that all wire connections are soldered and wrapped to blend in with the vehicles own loom.

    Started her up for the homeward journey using my bodge up wiring and she started a treat, drove home with no problems and battery was charging, had indicators and brake lights, horn etc.

    Any advice or a different diagnosis I could check would be most welcome.
    Last edited by Jeff Brown; 19-04-2017 at 01:00 PM.
    "Take nothing but pictures. Leave nothing but footprints. Kill nothing but time"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Brown View Post
    Hi peeps.
    ...... for a bodge up repair I wired a live feed via a new fuse, so I connect the fuse to give the pump a live feed, then another wire from starter that I touch the battery live to start engine.

    My diagnosis is I suspect that the immobiliser has finally given up and is faulty but the dam thing has around 20-30 wires wired into it and finding the wires connected to the relay is going to be a nightmare, if I can't find the wires responsible then the whole lot will have to be traced and rewired back to the original loom. The immobiliser was professionally installed and this means that all wire connections are soldered and wrapped to blend in with the vehicles own loom.

    Started her up for the homeward journey using my bodge up wiring and she started a treat, drove home with no problems and battery was charging, had indicators and brake lights, horn etc.

    Any advice or a different diagnosis I could check would be most welcome.
    So Jeff - my diagnosis would be not only has the imobiliser failed - but it is a pretty U/S imobiliser as it is capable of being by-passed.

    My advice would be if you have a wiring diagram - a soldering iron - and a few days i would open up the loom and reinstate the van to its original "NO IMMOBILISER" state.

    Coincidentally I recall from a copy of Trafic Report that someone in the Renault Trafic Club had much the same problem as you while touring in France - the small French garage instantly diagnosed imobiliser and said they would do what they always did and remove it.
    Jon

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    Your right Jon it just removes the power from the pump and starter motor, sounds the horn flashes indicators and no doubt a few other things. I shall be removing it completely so need a fair few hours cutting off the insulation and tracing wires back. I wish I did have a wiring diagram then it would be a case of just wiring 4 wires back into the original loom and it would be working again. Still it lasted 23 years before it failed and just my luck it happened to me.
    "Take nothing but pictures. Leave nothing but footprints. Kill nothing but time"

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    That reminds me of the time I was in a Transit, pulled into a car park, went for a walk, came back and it wouldn't start, ded aza dodothingy. Multimeter out, found burnt out wire near the ignition switch inside the steering column housing. There wasn't any metal nearby so that was a mystery. I checked along the wire expecting to see a short somewhere but there was none. I figured that as it was a car park with a long wire fence I should be able to find some wire lying about, which there was. After a bit of faffing about I rewired the burnt out bit, and off I went and caught the ferry.

    Then there was the time we were heading in our Autosleeper for the ferry to Holland. Going along the motorway nicely when suddenly loads of smoke comes out from under the dashboard. I quickly pulled on to the hard shoulder and told everyone to get out. I left the passenger door open to let the smoke out expecting it to go up in flames but the offending wire just burnt itself out. On tracing the wire which by now had no insulation on it, it turned out that some toe rag had run a wire from the battery to the car radio (you fitted them yourself in those days) without fitting a fuse, and had run it across a sharp piece of metal bodywork where it cut through the insulation and burnt itself. I ripped it out, a bit too soon as it burnt my hand. I think I figured that if I could wrench it out, burning my hand that would be better than watching my lovely motorhome go up in smoke. We had a lovely holiday after that, and I rewired the radio properly.
    The trouble with a hotel is that it tends to stay in one place.

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    Weird some people, I can never understand for the life of me why people run cables through holes in metal without protecting with a grommet and the cable with a fuse. I run a cable from the battery in an emergency I had no fuse holder but I did have some spade connectors that I connected to each spade of the fuse, it was a bodge up but I still had a fuse inline for protection.



    Up-date on my immobiliser.
    I was trying to get hold of the wiring diagram for this immobiliser, I tried to contact the company who installed it many years ago but the phone just kept ringing but not giving up I phoned Thatcham who approve these things and on the installation certificate it said alarm and immobiliser was Thatcham approved, even had a Thatcham approval number. Thatcham was busy and a voice recording asked me to leave my details, couldn't be bothered doing that so I emailed them this afternoon. I've just received a reply from Thatcham with some shock news, here is Thatcham's email reply.

    Hi Jeff

    Unfortunately the product you have reference is not a Thatcham recognised product and we do not hold any information on this system.
    I would suggest contacting the Alarm manufacturer if they still exist.

    Kind regards

    I've replied back too Thatcham giving them the approval Thatcham number that is on the installation certificate, if the reply comes back negative then I can only assume that the installation company were telling porky pies.
    Being an old Thatcham approved installer myself, I did inspect the installation and I can't knock it as it's been done to specifications of Thatcham, ie: all joints must be soldered and wrapped to blend in with original vehicle loom, it even incorporates 3 inline fuses, again a Thatcham requirement. So either Thatcham can't be bothered to check or the installer is telling porky's.

    If anyone on here can track down the manufacturers I'd be most grateful, I have tried for an hour this afternoon but I can't track them down. GT 692T immobiliser.........Thatcham approval number TE1127/0495 and I must state that this reference number to Thatcham does not ring any bells with me either.
    "Take nothing but pictures. Leave nothing but footprints. Kill nothing but time"

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    Jeff- since you are obviously a competent chappie can I assume that it isn't a question of 'a yellow / brown wire is cut, sent to the immobiliser and then back to the yellow / brown wire' otherwise you would just cut the link to the immobiliser and rejoin the two yellow / brown wires. Does it send signals to the Inevitable Computer? An ordinary alarm as I am sure is just a series of switches and all you would have to do is short out the switches and disconnect the power feed to the alarm. How does an immobiliser differ? It must disable the ignition on a petrol engine and presumably therefore disables the fuel pump in a diesel engine. So two wires will I guess go to the fuel pump and would just need the original chassis wires reconnected. I would guess the same might apply to the starter motor. I hope it isn't linked to the ECU because then that would have to be reprogrammed. YUK.
    Anyway as you used to be an installer, I am sure you know better than I do. I would be interested to hear the result.
    The trouble with a hotel is that it tends to stay in one place.

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    There can only be 4 wires to trace back out of the 20-30 in the immobiliser, ignition and diesel pump being the main 2 items of interest, just been looking through the Citroen c15 manual to check the correct colour coding. You can only insert a link into the immobiliser if you know the 2 correct holes in the box. The first wires I'll be checking is the ones protected by the fuses under the dashboard as these must carry a live feed, trouble is with this immobiliser every cable coming from it is a black cable and being in such a confined space wont make life easy getting off the insulation to allow me to trace the wires back.

    I think the quickest way will be using a continuity tester (battery disconnected) first from the ignition switch and trace which one comes from there into the plug that goes into the immobiliser and work on that principle so I can trace it back to where its been soldiered. No ECU to worry about so lucky there. I'm up there tomorrow and got soldering iron ready.
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    Just received my latest reply back from Thatcham.

    Hi Jeff

    I have reference the evaluation number and it relates to the GT immobiliser only which was delisted back in 1998. GT Alarms have had systems certified with us over the years, but currently no systems are Thatcham compliant.

    Unfortunately we do not hold any data on these older systems.

    Kind regards
    "Take nothing but pictures. Leave nothing but footprints. Kill nothing but time"

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    That was nice of them to do that bit of research wasn't it?
    The trouble with a hotel is that it tends to stay in one place.

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    At least they replied even if they couldn't help.

    Anyway chitty is up and running again and my diagnosis was totally wrong....Went over today and got too work tracing wires and disconnecting those of interest, I reconnected the main ones and didn't solder them until testing was finished, put the key in and still no ignition lights, no starter, some head scratching and got my meter and started to do some testing from fuse box to fuel pump, "dead" so disconnected battery and started doing some continuity tests on the cables, pump to fuse box "dead" this isn't right so I started tracing the wire from pump to fuse box through that convoluted tubing then I seen the problem staring me right in the face and hiding below the air filter was a multi way connector dangling in mid air, removed air filter, connected plug back together and hey presto fully working again. Re-soldered the cut wires to original harness and taped them up so at least I know in the future I wont have any issues with the immobiliser. I also cable tied the multi way connector together so that won't come apart in a hurry again. A few photo's of my bodge up wiring to show how I created a inline fuse not only to protect the circuit but to act as a switch to feed a live feed to the pump, also the end I used to tap the positive terminal of batter for starter motor. Also a picture of the offending multiway plug. I have no idea why the photo's have turned the wrong way, they are the correct way on my laptop.

    WP_20170421_12_00_32_Pro (Medium).jpg
    WP_20170421_12_00_54_Pro (Medium).jpg
    WP_20170421_12_01_04_Pro (Medium).jpg
    WP_20170421_13_08_52_Pro (Medium).jpg
    "Take nothing but pictures. Leave nothing but footprints. Kill nothing but time"

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    That looks like an original manufacturer's multiway connector. Its very unusual for those to come undone. Anyway at least you have found a definite problem and fixed it which is a lot better than trying to find an intermittent one.
    The trouble with a hotel is that it tends to stay in one place.

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    That was the plug the AA man disconnected when he put that temporarily clutch cable in, maybe he didn't push it back in fully but it doesn't have one of those locking devices on it, so to save any worries in the future I cable tied it together. Just glad it's all done now.
    "Take nothing but pictures. Leave nothing but footprints. Kill nothing but time"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Brown View Post
    That was the plug the AA man disconnected when he put that temporarily clutch cable in, maybe he didn't push it back in fully but it doesn't have one of those locking devices on it, so to save any worries in the future I cable tied it together. Just glad it's all done now.
    Even better when you know how / why the fault occurred - not your fault blame the AA A load of fathing about still you have checked out the wiring and imobiliser - you should sleep better for that.
    Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by kernowjon View Post
    Even better when you know how / why the fault occurred - not your fault blame the AA A load of fathing about still you have checked out the wiring and imobiliser - you should sleep better for that.
    Jon
    I am blaming him, he was the only one who removed the air filter and messed around in that area, perfectly alright before he touched it I've actually removed the immobiliser completely so there is no chance it does play up in the future.
    "Take nothing but pictures. Leave nothing but footprints. Kill nothing but time"

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    How did you work out the wiring Jeff? Was it just a question of rejoining similar coloured wires?
    The trouble with a hotel is that it tends to stay in one place.

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    It was pretty simple really, I used a signal generator and signal tracer from the ignition to the plug of the immobiliser, once I found the correct cables for what I wanted I followed the cabling to find out were they were joined within the loom, once I found them I just cute them and re-joined yellow to yellow and blue to blue. It was finding them in the loom was the problem because who ever fitted it did a very good job of hiding them. The cables from the immobiliser were all black. It's the same as the new alarm/immobiliser I have here Cat 1 all the cables are black but each cable has a label on them and on installation and testing you remove said labels.
    "Take nothing but pictures. Leave nothing but footprints. Kill nothing but time"

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    All that faffing for an unclipped plug.

    Still see you right in the long run!

    Well done.


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    Are you still a registered fitter then Jeff? I wanted to fit one and when I tried to buy it they wouldn't sell it to me because I hadn't been on a training course and got certified. I said I was certified but that didn't count. I said I worked in an electronics R&D lab and I can tell them all about TDR and joint resistances for the different methods of joining wires but that didn't count. I said I have seen appalling installations and there was no way I would pay someone to do a rubbish job so I didn't get one. I assume therefore that you must still be certified, in fitting that is, not in the 'sectioned' version of certification.
    The trouble with a hotel is that it tends to stay in one place.

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    No and haven't been for around 22 years now. You can buy Cat 1 alarms on fleabay but when you open the alarm they have the users manual but no fitting instructions because Cat1 & 2 have to be installed by approved installers and they'll charge you another £150 for the privilege of installing it and issuing a certificate.
    I manages to blag the fitting instructions from the supplier when I caught him out on installation procedures, also got the same copy from a friend who's still in the trade.
    I phoned my insurance company to find out if I could install it myself because I used to be an engineer, they agreed that I could but I would still have to take it to a garage for them to check over, I told my insurance I probably know more than the average mechanic, they'll just operate the remote to see if it works and charge me £50 for the privilege, that's our requirements she said, So I will install it myself and not worry about the discount, at least that way I know how it's installed and I'll also know it's installed properly.

    It's all well and good going on a installers course but then you have to buy the membership each year and in the 15 years I installed them I never once got a surprise visit to check my installations, expensive membership for no return.
    Last edited by Jeff Brown; 23-04-2017 at 08:15 PM.
    "Take nothing but pictures. Leave nothing but footprints. Kill nothing but time"

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